Why religions are sometimes necessary, and the gods even more so
Presentation to The Agnostics Group, Existentialist Society, Melbourne, Australia
Thor May PhD, 9 November 2024
Why religions are sometimes necessary, and the gods even more so - Thor May
Introduction
Well hello everyone. Thank you David Miller for inviting me to drop into your house of controversy. He has plucked me out of the ether for some mysterious reason. I come here with modesty and even fear. I admit to a severe case of impostor syndrome. I gather from David that you have all been arguing with gods and about gods forever, together with their earthly agencies, religions. You have collections of clever arguments and learned quotations at your fingertips. I have little of that. I'll step into puddles and fall down waterfalls that you all know about. Maybe some of you will decide to hate me forever, but the beauty of Zoom is that we can switch off anytime. Over here in Adelaide - I came because the rent was cheaper after being thrown out of China - they've decided after 8 years that I'm mad, bad and dangerous to know, but at least I pay the rent.
As for gods, singular or plural, they are harder to shake, but for the sake of argument I'll entertain a couple of possibilities - a) that like cells in a cosmic body, we are part of some universal living process, a pantheistic god if you like. We might create an itch or even an infection, but are unlikely to excite individual attention; b) that our species was captured at an early stage of evolution by a kind of mental parasite, a software bacteria or god-bot which like many bacteria has proved to have its uses, OR .... c) being a little more adventurous, that we are the playthings for a bunch of delinquent teenage gods hanging out somewhere in a black hole on the other side of the Milky Way galaxy. Anyway, there's not much we can do about it, but often claim - as Apex Predator humans - that we can do a lot about it ....
So this brings us to the interesting subject of human beings. Why do some of us decide that gods are necessary, while others - apparently in increasing numbers - decide that they can happily do without gods?
Housekeeping: To keep this meetup manageable, I have selected 10 talking points (from an infinite number of possible points).
Stage 1: I will go through each of the 10 talking points, giving my own, hopefully succinct, view on each of them.
Stage 2: Each of the 10 talking points will be offered up again in sequence, allowing you to express your views, or to respond to my suggestions. I expect that David will moderate this stage.
With David's permission I will also post on your website some reading and viewing links that I have made use of. There is nothing special about these links, but they may allow some follow-up.
Let me also put in a plug for three meetups I run from Adelaide, recently transferred into Facebook groups.
a) Adelaide English Conversation Practice - this is designed for people using English as a Second Language. ( https://www.facebook.com/groups/1678127882281980 )
b) Present & Discuss Online, now run on Zoom every second Tuesday evening ( https://www.facebook.com/groups/1668079356593059 ). Present & Discuss has been running under various names since since 2011, firstly in Brisbane, then in Adelaide. It has become a bit unpopular since it is genuinly about exploring ideas. It turns out lthat most people are not really interested in exploring ideas. They come to gatherings of any kind for social reasons only. Sigh.
c) Adelaide Present & Discuss Live - a Friday evening cafe version of Present & Discuss ( https://www.facebook.com/groups/497784706090301 ).
List of Talking Points
1. What is your big picture question ? =>
a) What is the most important and interesting big picture question in your life?;
b) When do you expect to get an answer to that question?
2. Why do so many of us no longer depend upon religious stories to tell us who we are?
3. What are the 38.9% of Australians who say they have no religion (2021 census) missing out on?
4. What are the benefits of founding a spiritual movement united by a titular god or gods, instead of merely appealing to an ideology, or even more loosely to a general philosophy (e.g. humanism)?
5. Pantheism or a personal god?
6. Is modern post industrial society hospitable to theistic control?
7. Have we really reached an Age of Enlightenment for the many?
8. The Human Brain As A Prediction Machine
9. Are the rituals and beliefs of religions still necessary stabilizing forces for large populations?
10. God as a real psychological helper Vs God as a scam
Talking Points Starter Discussion
1. What is your big picture question ? =>
a) What is the most important and interesting big picture question in your life?
b) When do you expect to get an answer to that question?
Back in the 1990s when the Internet was young and there were no blogs, I put two form questions onto my website, thormay.net. Hardly anybody visits thormay.net nowadays (except the Chinese, probably to scrape content). Then however it was quite popular.
I was astonished by the very large response to those form questions. I was even more astonished by the uniformity of the answers to the first question, "What is the most important and interesting big picture question in your life?" The answers were overwhelmingly of the form, "Why was I born ... why am I here?"
However, answers to the second question were sparse: "When do you expect to get an answer to the first question?"
Some people of course had a religious answer, and those folk are of special interest to us today. The majority had no answer to that second question, or replied 'never'.
I thought about this 'big question' myself. My conclusion was that if I could never get a reasonable to that second question, then it was a waste of a short life spending much time on trying to answer 'Why am I here?". Instead I decided to ask another big general question: "How Does It Work?" - how does my car work, how does China work, how does the human brain work? etc. From that time I have never been bored. ... And if you think about it, the scientific-industrial revolution has been driven by people like me who stopped worrying too much about "Why was I born?", and instead focused their lives on "How does it work?”
So today's topic is really about the difference between those people insisting on a religious answer to "Why was I born?" and those turning to more accessible questions such "How does it work?"
2. Why do so many of us no longer depend upon religious stories to tell us who we are?
Ethnic groups and even countries are mostly glued together a) by economic cooperation and an interest in mutual security; b) by shared experience, and c) by the stories they tell themselves about who they are, what they stand for, and where they come from. Historically, worldwide religious stories or myths were critical to this experience of self-identification. Until recently most populations were illiterate, except for a small elite, so that regular congregation in churches, mosques, temples etc was critical to orally pass on stories and practices which defined the group. Now we have mass literacy, mass education, and countless channels of communication to shape us daily. However a proportion of people still prefer the comfort and coherence of an established religion to set their boundaries and direct their energies (.. and as an aside, among those who seek to represent us in the nation's parliaments far more are likely to claim a religious affiliation than those whom they claim to represent).
The world is now awash with stories to tell us who we are. Movements gather around some of those stories, and the Internet in particular has enabled the emergence of such groups. They run the whole spectrum from amateur scientists to environmental campaigners to anti-aging enthusiasts to political cults like MAGA. That is even before we factor in more established tribes like those you find in spectator sport and music. Wannabe 'influencers' are legion. Some of them manage to grab a meme and run, attracting at least for a while, followers counted in the millions. This happens while the churches, excepting for some charismatic startups, empty out. An Iranian friend tells me that the mosques in Iran are also emptying out - mixing God and Caesar has always been a fraught move. Meanwhile across the Pacific lake, overwhelmingly the 99 million members of the Communist Party of China are in it as a career move, not in a search for identity ( ... I worked in that country for 5 years).
It is also true that sometimes ancient belief systems are worked over, and have always been worked over, to fit current social and political needs. Some of you may have played a parlour game of "what would Jesus have said?" as you survey some contortions by, say, America's religious right or the Putin-world remake of the Russian Orthodox Church. Well, they do cater to people who seem to need that sort of thing, and their God comes along for the ride. But it doesn't have to be overtly religious. For example, the philosophy of Stoicism has been around since 300 BC and has plenty to recommend it. I've added a link here to a video which tracks how Stoicism has been turned inside out and upside down, first as grist to snake oil Internet marketing, then as a banner slogan for the so-called manosphere, and finally as a so-called philosophical foundation for America's white supremacy movement. The moral I guess is that if you want to bring your wisdom to the world you might wind up on Truth Social in unexpected ways;.
3. What are the 38.9% of Australians who say they have no religion (2021 census) missing out on?
Like any social or political movement, most religions are a big tent bringing together an assortment of values and practices which individually are likely to be found in many communities worldwide. For example, there is nothing essentially Christian about the biblical ten commandments. In countries like Australia large numbers of people are saying that they have no religion. They are not saying that they have abandoned particular values they may share with religious followers. They are saying that religious institutions no longer add value to what they do and believe anyway in their daily lives.
4. What are the benefits of founding a spiritual movement united by a titular god or gods, instead of merely appealing to an ideology, or even more loosely to a general philosophy (e.g. humanism)?
There are probably many answers to this question, depending upon the society in question, its culture, and its stage of historical development.
An interesting angle is taken by Robin Dunbar. I have linked one of his videos in the Readings section: "How Religion evolved and why it endures". Dunbar's argument is that religion is about bonding communities, and that it does this more durably than secular groups. From his research, in the settling of North America, religious groups averaged 150 members, and lasted about 70yrs. Comparable secular groups averaged only 50 members and lasted about 10 years . Projecting this into the modern era, human social groups, including villages, Facebook & cults, average around 150 members in size. Dunbar also has a longer historical theory. He proposes that from around 8000 BC with the emergence of farming and villages for protection, doctrinal religions were needed to stop people killing each other. This evolved, he says, into revealed religions from 3000 BC with a strict, personal god. He links this to a collapse of Sahara ecology, invasion of the Sea People from northern Europe, and the destruction of Mediterranean empires. A strict personal god had two effects: bottom up bonding of as opiate of the masses + a policeman in the sky effect to maintain control .
=> Having worked for 12 years in China & South Korea, where spirits still reign supreme, I have deep doubts about parts of Dunbar's thesis. Human psychology is wonderfully devious. There is no doubt though that titular gods still have a strong hold on many minds.
5. Pantheism or a personal god?
Many myths and beliefs in traditional societies assume that Nature & the Universe is a living whole which must be kept in balance. James Lovelock's concept of Gaia and modern environmentalism tends towards something similar. This is a kind of pantheism. Well, current estimates are that a man averages around 35 trillion cells, little animals holding hands, + maybe 38 trillion bugs hanging out in the corridors (viruses, bacteria etc). So it would be easy to see the idea of a universal pantheistic spirit as an extension of the inner universe which is each of us. But each human also wants special favours. Would it be reasonable to see this selfish wish for personal favours as a motivation for declaring a personal helper god or gods who will assist with personal prayers?
I have linked a video by David Voas , "Why Belief in God Is Disappearing in the West". Voas closely links the fading influence of religion in educated societies with diminishing belief in a personal god, even when some pantheistic notion is accepted. The proposition is: "When god is indifferent to people, people become indifferent to god". I find this persuasive. Of course, those who do remain attached to recognized religions, including charismatic religions, are usually also welded to the idea of a personal god offering benefits.
6. Is modern post industrial society hospitable to theistic control?
In the large populations of nation states, there is always a big chunk of those populations which are attracted to some form of absolutist control, even fascism; (e.g. witness the current American election). Such people, though they are not the only ones, are strong candidates for accepting control by the agents of some god. However the historical and cultural conditions have to be right.
Of all the modalities of human society, the urban industrial and post-industrial variants are not proving terribly hospitable to theistic tyranny. For one thing, the tendency to democracy itself, with all its messy compromise, is antithetical to unaccountable power. But most critically, the whole technological and scientific foundation of modern societies is built upon finding answers to matters which had been considered the province of god and his agents. Moreover, the scientific and technical answers have turned out to be overwhelmingly more effective and congenial than the theistic proscriptions. This is not a comfortable situation for an all-knowing, all-powerful god. ... Curiously, the old notion of co-nature, balance, the human as nature's warden is much more appealing to men and women in the twenty-first century, and most so-called new-age religions seem to be heading in that direction.
7. Have we really reached an Age of Enlightenment for the many?
The getting of a little competence by the few has left an army of wounded and deformed in its wake. The air is shrill with a rhetoric of "productivity", "efficiency" and "progress". When these clarion calls to advanced ideology fade into the brutal reality of fixing an engine, passing an exam or raising a family, it is not at all clear that many more folk are smarter, nobler or more able than their ancestors were three generations ago. Electricity, polymers and futures markets are for the majority utterly mysterious miracles of faith. Self-selected rejects from the technical age flounder in a miasma of uncomprehended "scientific certainties" which for them are as oppressive as any medieval religious dogma. Covert revolt, cargo cults, the ritualization of education, and similar manifestations of unreason must be expected, and may finally bury us.
So is UNREASON needed for ordinary people to survive in an over-complex society?
Between astrological charts and economic rationalism lies a continuum of mis-reason that entangles and engages the energies of all but a small part of the world's population. Maybe one morning they will wake up, find the digital controls of civilization on sick leave with a computer virus, and reason from their own confusion that God has arrived for a brief annihilation ceremony before catching the 4.30 pm space drifter to the next universe ...
8. The Human Brain As A Prediction Machine
If the human brain is a fairly successful prediction machine, both for managing our internal physiology and for surviving in a hostile world, do we really need an external god to guarantee outcomes anyway?
I have given you a link to a video by Brian Greene with David Chalmers and Anil Seth (20 Jul 2024) "What Creates Consciousness?"
The conclusion reached by these researchers is that for most of the world's population until recently an external god or some external agent was needed to guarantee outcomes anticipated by our clever predictive brains, not least in a world full of threats and merely fair weather friends. There was a lack of self confidence. God was a helper and guarantor.
This has been supplanted for many in the age of science by a (perhaps foolhardy) confidence that we can manage stuff on our own, thanks very much. Not everyone shares that confidence, which seems a pretty strong reason for many to still cling to recognized gods and religions. Feeling a need for external agency is a different question of course from whether that agency actually exists. But if god didn't exist, god or gods would have been invented.
9. Are the rituals and beliefs of religions still necessary stabilizing forces for large populations?
For some people the rituals and beliefs of religion are still a much needed stabilizing force. This is more obvious in societies under stress than in more relaxed environments. Australians have it pretty good nowadays. For seven years I worked in South Korea, a society under huge stress. Drive into any town or city and you will see huge, pink neon crosses from churches competing for new faithful. Every town in China, where I worked for 5 years continues to do a brisk trade in temple rituals, lucky amulets and kitchen gods, regardless of the Communist Party.
Of course, the whole religious drill can be overplayed when it intrudes too aggressively on the normal habits of daily life. Religion at its best IS a vehicle for community. It creates a set of rules and values within which people may direct their thoughts, their behaviour and their plans. It sets the ground rules to feed and breed by. It provides a reason and usually a venue for ritual, for celebration, and most of all, for groups of people from every walk of life to come together for fellowship. These are the undeniable benefits of religion and the real source of its durability. The trouble is, the storylines sustaining known religions are becoming less and less credible to more and more people. Also, the debit side of the ledger in social costs is becoming too burdensome to ignore. I have already mentioned Iran. My Iranian friends, fresh from an overbearing theocracy, tell me that the mosque attendance in Iran is beginning to resemble the empty churches of Adelaide.
Rituals and beliefs in general are self-adjusting devices. What they stabilize may be as varied as the self-respect of the individual or the perpetuation of a criminal organization. Perpetuation is actually a major thread, for whatever has some definition in our consciousness will attract an expectation that it might, should or even must continue. The expectation easily becomes ideological and then religious (when it is kicked upstairs to the realm of universal truth).
Note that a few of us seem to be almost predestined outsiders. From the earliest memories, I have been repelled by ritual and routinized belief, and this of course has put me beyond the ambit of normal community.
10. God as a real psychological helper Vs God as a scam
When Donald Trump sells personally signed, gold covered Bibles, made in China, for $59.95 we can be pretty sure that the salesman's motive is not a deep religious desire to spread the good word. At another extreme, there are clearly people (even in Australia) for whom religious faith is a great source of psychological strength and an organizing principle which gives them direction in life. We might not share their passion, but we have to respect it.
However, often our judgements are more difficult. Individuals themselves might not be consistent, or may seem to compartmentalize their beliefs and moral codes in different life spheres. For example, Australian politicians as a group have a much higher level of announced religious belief than the general population. No doubt some are genuine, at least some of the time, while others may be merely political entrepreneurs.
I have linked a video by a widely known medical influencer, Dr Boz. Her presentation gives me pause, not particularly from a medical perspective - I am skeptical of much corporate medical practice too - but from her intense story of rejecting orthodox corporate medicine after direct messaging from her god. It's a very American story, and may be entirely genuine, or it may be a way of banking reputational capital. Her advice in the video comes with a long list of 'Dr Boz' products to be purchased. See Dr. Boz [Annette Bosworth, MD] (19 Oct 2024) "I quit medicine" in the links. Decide for yourself. This kind of personal decision about the religion of others, will, I guess, always be with us.
Discussion Venue
<> This presentation was hosted on 9 November 2024 at the invitation of the Agnostics Group of Melbourne Existentialist Society – https://www.meetup.com/existentialist-society/events/303898083/
David Miller, Secretary, Existentialist Society. Email: existmelb@yahoo.com.au
<> A 50 minute Youtube home recording of the presentation has been posted at https://youtu.be/hft31FGc56w . ( The live session had 42 participants with a Q&A lasting for an extra 3.5 hours after the presentation itself. This has not been recorded).
Extra Reading & Viewing
A) Links to a few of my articles which have a bearing on the talk topic:
1. The Agnostic's Survival Manual http://thormay.net/unwiseideas/TheAgnosticsSurvivalManual.htm [an eclectic collection of about 20,000 words, scratched down over the years and sometimes contradictory]. PDF at https://www.academia.edu/3486693/The_Agnostics_Survival_Manual
2. Does religion emerge as a product of complex systems? – exploring an allegory http://thormay.net/unwiseideas/Religion.htm . PDF at https://www.academia.edu/9924682/Does_religion_emerge_as_a_product_of_complex_systems_exploring_an_allegory
3. The peculiar interest of god(s) in human morality http://thormay.net/unwiseideas/peculiargod.htm . PDF at https://www.academia.edu/19528937/The_Peculiar_Interest_of_God_s_in_Human_Morality
4. Unseen Grammar - Suspecting the God of Cracks Between the Floorboards http://thormay.net/unwiseideas/godofcracks.html . PDF at https://www.academia.edu/2312782/Unseen_Grammar_Suspecting_the_God_of_Cracks_Between_the_Floorboards
5. What will be the dominant ideologies of the 21st Century? PDF at https://www.academia.edu/5681348/ . PDF at https://www.academia.edu/5681348/What_will_be_the_dominant_ideologies_of_the_21st_Century
6. Super-Culture And The Ghost In The Machine http://thormay.net/unwiseideas/skeptic/philos7.html . PDF at https://www.academia.edu/3653431/Super_Culture_And_The_Ghost_In_The_Machine
B) Other material referenced
David Voas (19 Oct 2024) "Why Belief in God Is Disappearing in the West". A Dose of Reason channel @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O6TEaHyXrsg [Quote: "When god is indifferent to people, people become indifferent to god". ]
Wikipedia (2024) "Gaia Hypothesis" @ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_hypothesis
Chris Williamson (1 Sept 2024) "Is This The Most Absurd Time In History? - Rudyard Lynch". @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXr8FFm6TDA [Quote: "Is the modern world weird? Whether it's incels, brat summer, a broken media landscape, godlessness or a decline in institutional trust it seems like lots of modernity is kind of odd. From the fall of empires to the rise of new world orders, how does our current timeline compare to the rest of recent history?"]
Wikipedia (2024) "Irreligion in Australia" @ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_Australia
Aperture (8 Sept 2024) "How Stoicism Became The World's Greatest Scam." @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8REOHfdVZQ [Quote: "As someone who has covered and studied Stoicism for years now, I’ve noticed something strange happening. This ancient philosophy that was once a guide to living a good and fulfilled life has been co-opted by the manosphere and turned into snakeoil, sold as the magic pill to fame, fortune, and everything in between. My question is why stoicism? Out of all the other philosophies out there, why this one? In fact, why philosophy at all?"]
Robin Dunbar (20 Oct 2024 DENMARK) "How Religion evolved and why it endures". @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_BRofevrCw [Quote: "Why are humans the only species to have religions? Does religion provide genuine evolutionary benefits? Why are humans uniquely susceptible to the “mystical stance”? When did religion first evolve? Why do religions keep reinventing themselves? // Religion is the one thing that clearly differentiates humans from all other animals. That in itself raises a whole series of questions: Why did religion evolve? When did the capacity for religion first evolve? What cognitive abilities allow humans to be religious but apes not? Is religion at all beneficial? // In this episode Robin Dunbar will argue that religion evolved to help bond our unusually large social groups, and became especially important after we started living in increasingly large villages and towns from around 8000 years ago. He will suggest that religion built on very ancient psychological traits that, while playing a crucial role in creating both friendships and bonded communities, can, under certain circumstances, give rise to what he calls “the mystical stance” – a capacity that, through trance states, allows us to feel that we engage directly with mysterious forces that control the universe. Leaving us with one tantalizing question: did the Neanderthals die out because they weren’t religious?"]
Brian Greene with David Chalmers and Anil Seth (20 Jul 2024) "What Creates Consciousness?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06-iq-0yJNM [Quote: ".. exploring how far science and philosophy have gone toward explaining the greatest of all mysteries, consciousness--and whether artificially intelligent systems may one day possess it."]
Dr. Boz [Annette Bosworth, MD] (19 Oct 2024) "I quit medicine" @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZFfNteRBcA [Thor, comment: The medical topic apart, this video is interesting in the way it explains an individual solving a personal/professional life crisis by using their god (or claimed belief in god) as a helper to overcome mental and emotional barriers. Getting strength in this way may be genuine - and thus a clear instance of 'needing a god' - and/or in some cases a way of banking reputational capital in commerce, politics etc.]
C) Thor's Meetups:
a) Adelaide English Conversation Practice - this is designed for people using English as a Second Language. ( https://www.facebook.com/groups/1678127882281980 )
b) Pesent & Discuss Online, now run on Zoom every second Tuesday evening ( https://www.facebook.com/groups/1668079356593059 ). Pesent & Discuss Online under various names has been running since 2011, firstly in Brisbane, then in Adelaide. It has become rather unpopular since the meetup is genuinely about exploring ideas. it turns out the vast majority of people are not really interested in probing unfamiliar ideas. They come to gatherings of any kind for social reasons only. Sigh.
c) Adelaide Present & Discuss Live - a Friday evening cafe version of Active Thinkers ( https://www.facebook.com/groups/497784706090301 ).
D) Thor's Websites:
a) The Passionate Skeptic - https://thormay.net [legacy]
b) Academia.edu repository - https://independent.academia.edu/ThoroldThorMay [150+ articles]
contact: thormay@yahoo.com
Why religions are sometimes necessary, and the gods even more so © Thor May 2024