online discussion: please use the "discussion page" tab on http://www.meetup.com/Gentle-Thinkers/(not the main Meetup page - otherwise people get flooded with notifications which many don't want to see. Note that you can also switch notifications on/off in the settings).
Dwyer, James G. (November 5, 2010) "A Constitutional Birthright: The State, Parentage, and the Rights of Newborn Persons". William & Mary Law School; Social Science Research Network, online @ http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1703414
Ireland, Judith (January 23, 2014)"Hey Mr Andrews, let's skip the talkfest. Here's the path to harmonious love..." [the Australian federal minister for Social Services is currently looking for ways to cut pensions, but he is also trialling a scheme which encourages couples to apply for 100,000 vouchers, total value $20 million, as a subsidy for ''marriage and relationship education and counselling, including components of parenting education, conflict resolution and financial management education'']. Brisbane Times, online @ http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-opinion/hey-mr-andrews-lets-skip-the-talkfest-heres-the-path-to-harmonious-love-20140123-31aox.html#ixzz2rCfGFmZR
Nelson, Jessie [director] (2001) I am Sam. "A mentally retarded man fights for custody of his 7-year-old daughter, and in the process teaches his cold-hearted lawyer the value of love and family." Film, reviews online @ http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0277027/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1
ix) understanding avenues for following life goals in education, careers and personal development
2. Ways of Advancing Parenting Competence
a) The Core Problem with Licensing
The topic of this debate seems to presume that “a licence for parents” is the best way to advance parenting competence. Initially I took this to be a joke, but upon investigation find that it has been the subject of hundreds of debates and articles, even books. Therefore, as a professional educator, I will state my view on the licence idea at the outset. I believe that it would be the very worst way to advance parenting competence. In a following section I expand the licence idea in more detail. Briefly however, licensing always implies some form of compulsion, and from the point of view of efficient learning + applied practice to follow, compulsion carries huge negatives in education. We do have a compulsory general education system because that seems like the easiest solution to an overwhelming need. Mass education in its present form is extremely inefficient for many reasons, but largely because the motivational engagement of its captive students overall is low, especially after puberty, and (closely related) their application of taught knowledge after schooling is rather minimal. The compulsory licensing of adults based on their meeting some contentious standard of required parenting knowledge would have all of the handicaps of compulsory child education, but multiplied by the relative independence and likely hostility of adults. In other words, I believe that the compulsory licensing of parenthood would be ineffective amongst those most in need of educating, that it would excite extreme hostility, and that it would be exploited by ideologues of every persuasion for ends entirely unrelated to the purpose of fostering competent parents.
b) Other Ways to Advance Parenting Competence
This is not the debate topic. However, if we agree that there is always a need to improve parenting competence, it is obviously important to find the best ways to do this efficiently and humanely with the largest number of people. For example, my own parents were desperately incompetent on many issues of child raising, but with good intentions managed to be passably effective in others. I probably shouldn’t be here (!), and certainly would have had different life chances with a different set of parents, or differently informed parents.
i) Self-education by Parents
In one way or another very large numbers of parents do set out to educate themselves about the children they are about to have, or are in the process or raising. This desire stimulates a big and profitable section of both print and electronic media. Some of the information is very basic, some is quite advanced. Some is culturally accepted, some is controversial. Some is honestly educational, some is a form of commercial blackmail. Some is more or less reliable, some is mush.
Many TV and other media programs are aimed at educating pre-school children (e.g. Sesame Street) and in the process have a significant impact on educating parents. Far fewer programs set out to educate parents as such, perhaps because it is much harder to influence adults with entrenched attitudes in an entertaining but informative way. Governmental programs/propaganda to influence adults about effective parenting have been tried in some political environments, for example China. My impression is that such attempts have usually excited widespread derision.
ii) The Roles of Doctors, Psychologists, Social Workers, Teachers, Religious Pastors and other Professional Care Givers
The kind of society which we have at present prioritizes and rewards the activities of “productive” workers, meaning those who contribute in some way to the direct success of commercial enterprises. Amongst care givers, it is mostly doctors who earn money and respect on a scale comparable to the commercial sector (mainly, I reason, because the power of life and death is a powerful bargaining tool). As it happens, doctors as a group are not particularly effective in parental education. Many of them are poor communicators.
Nevertheless, care givers of various kinds remain the primary, non-media official avenue through which parents and prospective parents receive guidance on child raising. The effectiveness of such professional care-giver influence varies very widely. It is influenced by money, class, education and opportunity. It is deeply influenced (and always will be) by the individual qualities of both the care givers and their clients.
iii) Parental Education for Marginalized Members of Society
People can be more or less marginal members of their society for a vast number of reasons. The may be instinctive outsiders (I am one of those), they may hold sub-cultural beliefs which put them beyond the mainstream, the may be immigrants to the country, they may be suffering the consequences of poverty, and so on.
However, in every society there are very large numbers of people who struggle to cope mentally, emotionally or economically with the expectations of the general community. Those with experience of social work know very well that a high proportion of these individuals will always be problematic. Almost half of the Australian population is functionally illiterate (in common with all “developed” societies), and this immediately throws up immense barriers to participation. Overcoming adult illiteracy is a slow, hard, emotional process which also offers little public recognition for the teachers. Many of these marginal individuals also have very poor personal management skills, and often a drug or alcohol problem. Life has taught them that it is an unfair world, and that the only rewards they are ever likely to enjoy will come from immediate gratification, not rational long term planning. All of these issues can, of course, make them appalling parents and also absolutely resistant to “education” from authority figures.
Astonishingly, a minority but still significant number of children from such environments do overcome the handicaps of their upbringing and go on to become resilient members of the wider world. People who talk about a “licence for parents” probably have this large underclass in mind, with more than a hint of eugenics at the back of their minds. Surely Hitler taught us that eugenics is never an answer. There are no “final solutions”. What we do know is that to succeed as a larger society, we need to maximize the opportunities for everyone, and find a humane place for those who are less successful. Short term, “rational” economic profit can often run counter to the larger social profit of group survival. Thus teaching successful parenting to those who have been the least successful in life will always be amongst the most difficult challenges, but in the long term offer the wider society the greatest rewards.
3. Justifying a licence – basic issues
The discussion topic is explicitly about licences, so this needs to be considered in some detail. A proposal for any kind of licence for anything must pass a series of basic tests itself before it can be taken seriously. In the case of a parenting licence we can ask (the list is not exhaustive) :
a) Purpose of the Licence
raising revenue? / controlling population growth? / confining population renewal to certain groups of the population? / requiring competence in something ? / encouraging competence in something ? / a moral agenda? / a health agenda? / an educational agenda / a personal management agenda? / a domestic management agenda? / a child psychology agenda? / a financial agenda? / a social class agenda? / a racial agenda? / an ideological or religious agenda? / a political control agenda? /
b) Issuance of the Licence
pre-natal? / post-natal? / universal? / once-off? / both genders? / for the infant stage only? / failure criteria? / administered by whom? / can be cancelled? / can be appealed? /
c) Viability of the Licence
would any government be able, politically, to introduce this? / would it be enforceable? / would it be invalidated by existing constitutional, case or common law? / in Australia this could not be federally legislated since it does not meet the residual powers test. Therefore, what would be the consequences of variations between state laws on the issue? / those parents most in need of child raising guidance would, sociologically, by those least likely to comply with the requirements of any licence. Could or should they be “controlled”? / almost half the Australian population is functionally illiterate. How would this part of the population be reached and how would their child raising ability be monitored or improved? / would existing parents require a licence? If they refused to comply, what then? /
4. The historical lessons from authority let loose suggests caution
Formalizing anything always carries a social cost, and only sometimes a social benefit. The word “licence” implies proscription, control, restriction, exclusion. When it comes to human procreation and child raising, the agents of every religion and most ideologies have historically considered it their business to express an opinion and often forcibly intervene. That is, they have done their best to exert all those implications of the word “licence”. It is not irrelevant that those moral agents have overwhelmingly been aging males with certain personality characteristics which many of us might not associate with enlightened understanding of child psychology or children’s needs. Luckily, given the natural rebellion of youth, would-be guardians of “proper” child raising have often failed. However they remain one of the main reasons that we have private denominational schools, and they have potent influence in institutions like Parliament. Any law, declaration, syllabus or licence introduced by a government for licensing parents would be “interpreted” as some kind of gospel to fit the ends of this interest group or that, just as, for example, the Bible, the Quran and the American Constitution have been twisted in every imaginable direction. In a similar vein, doubts such as this have been a prime reason for the Australian people in the past rejecting proposals for a “Bill of Rights”.
Finally, a quote from my sister, who is a professional social worker: "Suffice to say I think the idea of a license for parents is someone's
sense of humor. Either that or they're pretty naive. We can't even
administer simple things efficiently, let alone something as full of
complexity and politically loaded as parenting. It makes me wild
that people are so conceited about their version of child rearing, and
their own apparent god given right to overpopulate the Earth."
Postscript - Eugenics and the Concept of "Genetic Decline" - an extra note by Thor
This is a quick follow-up to the actual meetup discussion. It was impossible in a meetup like that to give a fair response to the issue of "genetic decline" which did come up. Many of us have, of course, wondered at the long term consequences of apparently brighter people having fewer children while the supposed dummies breed like rabbits. It is a highly emotive question, but some of the quick "commonsense" reactions, especially amongst politicians ranging from Hitler to the father of modern Singapore, Lee Kuan Yu have been pretty disastrous. Eugenics is a rather taboo topic.
The first issue of course is just what, statistically, is the range of variation in population fertility amongst different social groups, cultural groups, geographically distributed groups and so on. Quick impressionistic answers are easy. Detailed analysis and evaluating its significance is hard.
The second issue is how much part so-called IQ, as it is measured conventionally, plays in the life success and economic success of individuals and social classes. One engaging but contestable attempt at an answer (it raises many queries in my mind) is given by psychologist, James Thomson in his blog post, "The Seven Tribes of Intellect" @ http://drjamesthompson.blogspot.com.au/2013/12/the-7-tribes-of-intellect.html
A third issue is that even if Thomson is right in his division of populations, it is not clear how well a) that individuals in these "tribes" correlate with real social and economic classes in different societies, and b) crucially, it is not clear how well IQ, whatever it is, is inherited, and under what conditions.
From some of the studies cited by Wikipedia, it seems that for people from disadvantaged backgrounds, environmental influences have a much larger effect on outcomes for final adult IQ than the influence of inherited genes. It seems that for children from privileged backgounds, these effects of environment and inheritance are reversed. However none of these problems are settled.
Finally, for those interested in the sociology of childlessness, this is also complex, and much studied. Wikipedia has a large entry on the "Child-free" phenomenon at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Childfree
Summary: 21st Gentle Thinkers Debate
- “People should require a licence to become parents.”
Note: This summary is based and interpreted from notes taken during the debate and may contain errors. If you wish to correct, be attributed to or contribute content, please contact me or post a comment.
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When asked who was for, against or supportive of the idea, the group was divided into:
No: 4
Yes (perhaps as legitimised as mandatory education for prospective parents): 1
Good idea but difficult to implement: 5
- One member of the group noted that the highly educated people are less likely to have children but these people may treasure their children more.
- Due to this phenomena, we may see negative population growth (as seen in some European countries). These countries may have to start relying on immigrants to fill jobs and care for the elderly.
- Another member asked if more affluent parents would be better parents if they aren’t able to give their children time and affection due to chasing their own pursuits or personality defects.
- Nearly half the group felt that a parent license would equate to a “Big Brother level” of control over reproductive rights. One member commented that it would be against social justice.
- A parent license shouldn’t be confused for a breeding license unless you are working on population control.
- Questions surrounding the development, assessment and control of a parental licensing system indicated that:
- There is no manual for raising kids but there are things that you SHOULD not do.
- The concept of being tested and retested for a parent license would be fraught with problems.
- No one knows who would create, operate or control this system. Some members argue that no one has the right to decide how you should raise your child.
- For some, it isn’t moral to genetically engineer people.
- Our current and future governments wouldn’t be good at managing a parental license system. Nor do we trust them to be good.
- Legalising marriage and having age limits (e.g. being 18+) are ways of regulating who is a parent and how children are cared for when divorce and death occur .
- A member argued that a license is required when one needs specific (technical) skills.
- For example, a driving license is necessary if there is a moral and practical imperative to protect oneself and others from reckless driving.
- Our current licensing system for wheeled vehicles is flawed and a member suggested that having additional testing to keep your license would be a more effective way of keeping unsafe drivers off the road.
- We may not have the moral imperatives to have a parental licensing system in place. Parenting is a subjective and moral action.
- Many members agreed that we need a better social services system to improve quality of life rather than a parenting license.
- The group agreed that classes on child nutrition, developmental psychology and other things necessary to raising children would benefit society greatly. Results would be gradual if this was implemented.
- Some people may not be good parents because they lack sufficient education to understand the information available or aren’t good at identifying generational or cultural barriers. E.g. “My parents hit me as a kid and I turned out alright.”
- While compulsory education may be more effective than a parenting license, it doesn’t help those who have no desire to learn and we may need to use various different approaches to fill in the gaps.
- One member of the group commented that our society isn’t “valuing” children which can be seen in how we deal with child abuse, neglect and crimes involving and against children. It is also seen in how we intervene or stay silent in regards to this.
- If we had a zero tolerance towards crimes against children, we might see more positive changes. Systems like the Blue Card, Kids Helpline and these posters are small steps towards this.
- There is mandatory education for parents who have been observed and reported as abusive or neglectful.
- Our media has a tendency to depict stereotypical abusive families (e.g. the alcoholic father, the neglectful mother). If more nuanced and common scenarios were presented, people may become more aware and proactive about getting help.
- The effects of a bad childhood may not be apparent until adulthood. As commented by one member, “Everyone had a bad childhood, nothing is perfect”.
- Australia has mostly nuclear families (2 adults, 1.9 children as at 2011 census) and having extended families may increase the focus on children.
- Parenting skills aren’t entirely instinctive for humans. Without help (expert or otherwise), a lot of parents get by. Demonstrating different ways of raising children may help parents “get it right”.
- As noted by one member, pre-natal education is readily available but there is very little available for anything past this stage. We also have mass education systems for children but none for parents and adults.
- A member noted that it is considered offensive to “criticise” the parenting methods of others. This might be problematic if you need to deliver feedback.
- It might be difficult (or impossible) to avoid indoctrinating your child. You could be doing it without realising it. Some people may be unintentionally creating clones of themselves.
- Due to the impressionable nature of children, parents may need to force themselves to present balanced views to their children.
- As adults, we might not be able to see the world in the same way as our children.
- Children (and adults) may have to retrain their brains once they start thinking for themselves.
- The group agreed that teaching critical thinking skills is necessary for human development. If our education system worked well, this would be standard in our curriculum.
- One member commented that you can predict the political system by observing how children are raised.
- Due to the difficultly of raising children, a member suggested that parenting licenses be given to societies as we need help.
- We may have to teach compassion so that we become better people and be able to educate society.
- Community inclusion would help prevent problems with raising people (children and adults). We can’t enforce or teach affection.
- One problem with this is that social interaction requires money and what can we do for those who are socially isolated or are outsiders.
- Other problems stem from mitigating and fighting the hordes of varying cultural groups and norms. Some of these groups have a lot of difficulty integrating into society.
- Agreeing on how to change society and where we intervene is difficult to consider and do. Yet social workers are the invisible and invaluable people who make these choices and rarely receive any accolades.
- Some of the group mentioned that our government doesn’t value children as they can’t support the economy. Laws are generated by and for those who have the power. Children don’t have a voice in this kind of debate.
- While education is a vehicle to reach people, it is very difficult to reach those who don’t measure to standards. The cost of a prison inmate is approximately $60, 000 – $70, 000 a year, we could do so much if that money could be used elsewhere.
Effective educational techniques and suggestions for adults and children:
- A ratio of 1:1 for teacher and student would be ideal but unlikely to occur.
- Having students and teachers making positive emotional exchanges can help facilitate learning.
- As can having both groups learn from each other.
- Mentoring can be help teaching and training in the educational system.
- Group role-play sessions may help students explore and understand the lives of others.
- People may need to create and find support groups of similar people to assist them and their education.
Interesting questions posed by the group:
- Is it worthwhile to have kids?
- Who decides what is “correct” parenting?
- Would a carer (biologically related or not) need a parenting license?
- What would you do if you had passed the parental license test once but failed it another time? What would happen to your children?
- What is the definition of a good parent?
- Can you raise children without indoctrinating them?
- Should we have tests to prevent psychopaths from having kids? What happens to the kids who had psychopathic parents?
- Is competency based testing effective?
- Would support systems be more effective than providing education?
- Why aren’t we concerned that the government could enforce changes to who can have a driver’s license when we would be frightened by them controlling the criteria of a parent license?
- Humans seem to find the universal right to have children as extremely important. Why do we uphold this? Don’t children have the right to have good parents?
- Why are adoptive and foster parents screened so heavily when biological parents aren’t until abuse or neglect have been reported?
Additional content covered by the debate:
Kevin Andrews and the relationship voucher program
Pet licenses
The Stolen Generation
Eugenics and genetics
People should require a licence to become parents(c) Thor May 2013